Connecting the Dots in Digital Transformation with Jim Herbert of Patchworks

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Aaron: Welcome back. I am Aaron Sheehan, the host of the B2B Uncut podcast sponsored by OroCommerce, the leading B2B eCommerce platform. And I’m joined today by a lovely man who I’ve known for some years. Uh, my, uh, my elder, Mr. Jim Herbert. Jim, would you like to introduce yourself for our audience?

Jim: Thank you for that, Aaron. Yeah, Jim Herbert here, I’m the CEO of Patchworks. So Patchworks is an integration platform as a service. I’ll get into that a little bit more, you know, later on, for sure. Um, I’ve been here for a couple of years now. Prior to that, I worked with you at another eCommerce platform for a couple of years. And actually, I’m a bit of a nerd, to be honest. I’m a technical CEO without a doubt; 

I’ve been programming computers since I was eight years old when my dad showed up with a Sinclair ZX Spectrum—Timex Sinclair in the U.S., of course. I got into assembly language pretty quickly, used a BBC microcomputer here, which led to the creation of the ARM chip, early RISC technology, all that stuff. I did a computer science degree and somehow got into eCommerce around ’99. I had my own agency and built loads of high-risk websites back in the day, plus some demand.

So we were in ATG, right? We were talking in the preamble about my time living in Boston very briefly. Back and forth to Boston in the late ’90s and early 2000s because of Art Technology Group (ATG)—one of the very first B2C platforms out there. In fact, a friend of mine at PS helped design the B2B module, which I believe is still running for a few Oracle customers around the world.

Aaron: It’s true; some of those people might be in our pipeline right now.

Jim: Exactly, exactly. Well, honestly, the PS team took my organizational design for the B2B module and just spelled it with a “Z”—doing it the American way.

Aaron: Zed.

Jim: That’s it, exactly. All that kind of stuff. I’ve been around and worked pretty heavily in B2B commerce. And yeah, thank you for having me on. That was a pretty long preamble, wasn’t it?

Aaron: Well, it was good! There’s a lot to cover there. You’ve established your bona fides, I guess, and your knowledge of the field. So, for transparency, Patchworks is officially a technology partner of OroCommerce. We have a connector on Patchworks. Do you call it a marketplace or an app store?

Jim: It’s a marketplace.

Aaron: Marketplace, yeah, that’s right. You used an acronym earlier—IPaaS. For anybody listening at home, that’s I-P-A-A-S. It’s a tech acronym; we love acronyms in technology. Could you describe what IPaaS is and how it differs from something like an ETL tool?

Jim: Part of the intro, you pointed out that I’m in my 50s, and one thing us 50-year-olds like to talk about is the reinvention of technology over and over again. IPaaS, ETL tools, Enterprise Service Bus (ESB), Service-Oriented Architecture, and microservices are all iterations and evolutions of solid principles, in my opinion.

To describe IPaaS, let’s talk about what you’d do without one or without an ETL tool—you’d write code. I was out with a partner, talking about old Hybris work I did with my agency, where we integrated Hybris to Business Central, or Dynamics, as it was back then. One of their customers was Rafa—the cycling gear brand. They’d ask, “Why is it costing 80 grand to write a bunch of Java and host it between Hybris and Navision?” And yes, we’d done it before, but service contracts meant IP was owned by the customer, so we couldn’t reuse the code.

Once you’ve written that code, that’s a sunk cost, and then it’s just maintenance. But you still want to host it somewhere, and you have to secure it, make sure it scales for Black Friday, etc. That’s what moves us to the IPaaS world, which differs from an ETL tool mainly because of the SaaS portion. Patchworks, for example, is true multi-tenant SaaS. If you want to connect, say, Oro to another system we support, you can come on right now, create an account, add the Oro connector, add another, like Business Central, and build the data integration flows out. It’s much more streamlined and scalable than traditional ETL.

Aaron: Yes, as someone who’s used those old ETL tools, I completely agree. IPaaS is hosted, secured, and provisioned, which matters a lot. This comes up for us with partners and our professional services team: when should a business implement an IPaaS instead of a point connector? When would you use IPaaS over rolling your own?

Jim: For me, it’s when things get complicated, even with just two apps. We often see this with other eCommerce platforms, especially the big green Canadian one. You might install different apps for integrations, but because they run independently, you can end up with issues—like, where is the order? Is it in the warehouse or still in NetSuite? That’s hard to manage.

So, the point of IPaaS goes back to an Enterprise Service Bus setup, where you have a central place to choreograph all the data through your business. The moment you’re talking to more than one system, you should start considering IPaaS. It helps to keep things manageable, especially when growth plans and scalability come into play.

Aaron: Brilliant. I agree with you there. I think of it as a scale thing: when you start adding multiple apps or have data governance needs. I’ve seen companies where IPaaS is the starting point of digital transformation, unlocking new possibilities. Speaking of transformation, I believe you won an award last night?

Jim: I did! We won the UK eCommerce Awards 2024 for Innovation. It’s a testament to what we’re doing with Patchworks, particularly our no-code/low-code interface. I actually showed a new WMS partner how easy it was to build a connector using our no-code interface—they were thrilled.

Aaron: That’s fantastic. Since our audience is largely B2B, do you have any customers in the B2B space?

Jim: We do, more B2B lite, I’d say. We have customers using platforms like Shopify with B2B modules. There’s a big German manufacturer I can’t name who’s transacting both B2B and B2C through Patchworks and doing very well with it.

Aaron: We talk a lot about digital transformation. When do you see IPaaS brought into the tech stack for digital transformation?

Jim: Digital transformation projects tend to involve larger, more educated buyers with IT departments who understand paper processes and logic. We usually get involved when the digitization has already started—when they’re putting systems like OroCommerce at the front end and need an ERP to distribute the data. We also see it a lot with product data management, which is critical in B2B for things like personalized pricing.

Aaron: Love it. Two things you mentioned stood out: your hammer anti-pattern idea and the common mention of Granger. Every B2B podcast I listen to seems to reference Granger! ERP is another recurring topic, and it’s often the heart of a business. No one loves their ERP, but everyone needs it. In the B2B space, who do you think is doing well with ERP?

Jim: We’re seeing Odoo gaining traction here in Europe. Their product demos well, it’s true SaaS, and it’s highly configurable, which is key for innovation. Businesses love Odoo’s user-based pricing model, too, which is more palatable than traditional SaaS subscription pricing. Business Central is also making a comeback for similar reasons. Both allow easy extension and endpoint management, making them good fits for complex B2B setups.

Aaron: I appreciate the shout-out to Odoo. OroCommerce, of course, is also open-source. So, we’re all about that! You mentioned a few great ERPs. Let’s shift gears to AI. I noticed Patchworks hasn’t jumped on the AI bandwagon. What’s your take on it?

Jim: I’m not an AI denier! We actually use AI internally, especially with Gen AI for content creation, which helps us build pages more quickly. In terms of product, we’re working on adding AI scripting, which will help with tasks like transforming data. Some competitors are building AI flow builders too, which look great in demos, but we’re not yet convinced of their practical use. Our goal is to make integration as easy as possible, so we’re embracing AI thoughtfully and at the right time.

Aaron: Completely agree. I experimented with ChatGPT for ETL work, and it was brilliant for standardized message formats. Now, for a bit of a therapy session: what advice would you give to a B2B company with an outdated ERP and offline processes, looking to start a digital transformation?

Jim: Go and get advice from similar companies! Find people who’ve done it. Go to trade shows, hear people’s transformation stories, and grab those people to ask how they started. When you get enough insights, then you can bring in an expert or agency to help. Break a big problem into small steps, have a strategic goal, but approach it tactically. And most importantly, don’t be afraid to make decisions—even if some are wrong, making decisions is better than doing nothing.

Aaron: I love that. Know your priorities and what happens if you don’t act. I often ask clients to envision the consequences of no action a year from now. It’s usually a wake-up call. Sometimes, avoiding a decision ends up being far costlier.

Jim: Absolutely. We worked with a UK fashion brand that had to pivot during COVID but couldn’t because they’d spent so much time keeping an outdated setup running. When COVID hit, they couldn’t scale, ran out of cash, and ultimately went under. It’s a great example of not making critical decisions early enough.

Aaron: Great insight. Summing up: talk to people who’ve done it, make strategic decisions, and don’t fear taking action. As we wrap up, I like to ask guests about any media they’ve recently enjoyed—book, movie, show?

Jim: I’m enjoying Slow Horses on Apple TV, and I recently watched the BlackBerry movie. It’s a brilliant business film that shows what happens when a company fails to adapt to market changes. BlackBerry dominated email and messaging, but the iPhone was an extinction-level event for them, and they couldn’t keep up. It’s a great watch for anyone interested in business.

Aaron: Slow Horses is fantastic. Thanks for those recommendations and for joining us today, Jim. We’ll have links in the show notes for anyone interested. Congrats again on the Innovation Award, and thanks for your time.

Jim: Thanks for having me on—it’s been great!